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One of the "Oddest" moments of 'reality' for me recently, was the appointment of Tony Blaire as "Middle East Peace Envoy"
Leaving aside the fact that he'd just declared war on a Muslim Country, he is a newly converted "Roman Catholic", and so also subscribes to the "Holiness" of those sites in and around Jerusalem etc...
I can't get my head around the logic at all...
Sending a Catholic to sort out a dispute between Muslims and Jews, based on the Holy Book, seems crazy to me.
I've said before, it's like sending a believer in Fairies, to sort out a dispute between Believers in Pixies, and believers in Goblins.
It can only "end in tears"
What it really needs, is an Atheist to "bang their heads together", and tell them to pack it in....
IMO

Jo van wrote:
The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years),

Uhoh... Bullshite allert...bullshite alert...

Jo van wrote:What it really needs, is an Atheist to "bang their heads together", and tell them to pack it in....
IMO

Another misnomer, an Atheist wouldn't have a clue what it's about, a deeply religious situation, and a godless moron who smugly announces that he knows best and has evolved beyond stupid superstitious beleifs in fairies will only annoy ths sh*t out of the participants... Actually, no, come to think of it, it might unite them...

saddle-tramp wrote:

Jo van wrote:
The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years),

Uhoh... Bullshite allert...bullshite alert...

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel.
That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?
Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?
There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing:
we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

I just go by what I've read, I don't know what version you choose to believe, I think the above quote by Israel's first Prime Minister, from a book written by the "former president of the World Jewish Congress", is a fairly reliable summary of what went on.
as is this, written by "Jews against the Occupation":
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Bill Hicks.

It's funny, but I get accusesd of being too "logical"., or humanist by evangelicals about my aporoach to faith...lol..

The israeli/palestinian conflict has been going on for hundreds of years..no one will be able to get them to accede /agree...what we need is someone who understands both sides, and gets them to compromise in a way that neither lose face...and you will never get anyone with that strong of an emotional conviction to give up their beliefs..on either side....

Jo... I don't need to regurtitate a rant about religious Propaganda someone else has spouted in this forum....

I too can look up wikedquotes from Ben-Gurion...

Yours missed out the preambles:

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs : From Peace to War (1985) by Shabtai Teveth, p. 32.


We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.
"On three fronts" (3 August 1938) as quoted in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (1954), p. 91

We accepted the UN resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?
Address to the Israeli cabinet (12 May 1948), as quoted in "One day that shook the world" by Ellli Wohlgelernter, in The Jerusalem Post (30 April 2002)

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)

But I'll save the last for a complete rendition of yer quote:
I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

Personally, I think you have either chosen to omit, or are ignorant of, but either way, you missed the irony in the content of the above quote...

THE problem with The Muslims Zange, and a lot of people don't understand this, is the Law of Dhimmi...

Restie baby.. I mentioned on here in this thread something about taking acid...

saddle-tramp wrote:Restie baby.. I mentioned on here in this thread something about taking acid...

I couldn't be arsed to read it all.

Maybe a brief synopsis at the end of each page would be useful.

cyst & deceased wrote:PS- My understanding of Buddha (which is very limited) is that he was a human who attained enlightenment, and tried to share the way with others. I think it's wrong to claim he was a deity or godly. Dalai Llama said Buddhism has nothing to do with God, it has to do with humans. I guess I could dig out the direct quote if anyone wants it. It's it one of these books around here somewhere.

True; it's largely why buddhism can be lived as a philosophy or a religion. I've always felt buddhists were pretty cool subversives. "You can keep your god and follow the way" Uh-huh, and then, the slow drip of different thinking takes hold and one gradually becomes less dogmatic. They couldn't have planned it any better if they tried. Or did they?

cyst & deceased wrote:PPS- Someone much older and wiser once gave me a useful exercise. Take all the major religious books, read them, then report all the similarities and contrasts between them. How are they alike? How are they different? What are the major points in each? It takes a true open mind and a truly loving individual to comprehend it. War mongers and politicians have no time for such an experience.

Once upon a time I was packed off to a private girl's boarding school cuz my mum wasn't going to be dealing with a rebellious teen and my father at the same time - she couldn't send him off, so it came down to me. I absolutely hated that school BUT one of the things I thought I would hate the most - the mandatory Religious Knowledge course - turned out to be incredible because it wasn't a dogmatic course - more reflective and critical thinking. Well ahead of its time, we compared and contrasted all religions (and pondered atheism and agnostics). Later I took a course on mythology that, in addition to the ancient religions we now accept as myths, also looked at mythology in current religion.

restless_native wrote:

saddle-tramp wrote:Restie baby.. I mentioned on here in this thread something about taking acid...

I couldn't be arsed to read it all.

Maybe a brief synopsis at the end of each page would be useful.

Och...that'd make life too easy and boring... Now get outta bed and do something