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What you expect of me, is to politely pretend that grown people aren't talking bullsh1t..

Nah, not me...I'm asking you to accept that just because some religious people or institutions are evil..doesn't mean they all are, or that their original purpose was...or that faith in itself is evil...

Men created all those evils Jo..not God...and trust me...He's not happy about the perversion of His message...

You would do better to demand better standards of behavior than blaming it on God...even if He doesn't exist ( which if He doesn't..He certainly didn't cause any of this), evil is evil...men ( not gender specific) make their own choices/decisions...

Somewhere ( more than once) you implied that there has to be something wrong with people who have faith...because of all this evil...my point is...I choose not to be evil..and I lead by example..and there are many religious people who are the same...the perversion of it is not because of us...there is also much good done in the name of religion...that counter balances the bad...sometimes fights it...there are religious people who fight against the extremes of their particular faith...

My personal opinion is that for many of the situations you describe..if they weren't using religion as a justification..they'd use something else..they are opportunists...and manipulators sometimes.,and its often about power..many wars have been fought for reasons other than religion..it is a human failing...

You could wipe out religion...I'd bet you wouldn't wipe out war...there were wars before Christianity...or any organize religion that we know today...

Why do away with something that also has the potential for great good...most things are not all evil or all good...

Besides..the truly (good) faithful are your ally, not your enemy...they don't like the way some things are either..

You do remind me of me when I was mad at God and the church...started when I was 13...long story..but, I recognize the anger...

I believe as I do, in spite of the bad that happens, not because of it...

Verity: that was really funny...I didn't know "droll" ,could be conveyed so well with the written word...






I believe what I do in spite of the

zangie wrote:You would do better to demand better standards of behavior than blaming it on God...even if He doesn't exist ( which if He doesn't..He certainly didn't cause any of this), evil is evil...men ( not gender specific) make their own choices/decisions...

Exactly..if you are a bra-burning member of the "I hate God so much ..like so totally and so completely and am in complete denial that he/it/we/they exist" brigade..why on earth are you accusing that God thing of so many wrongs?

I think you believe in him...dontcha????

if you are a bra-burning member of the "I hate God so much ..like so totally and so completely and am in complete denial that he/it/we/they exist" brigade..why on earth are you accusing that God thing of so many wrongs?

What are you talking about? The man hasn't accused "God" of so many wrongs. He's saying he believes THE BELIEF in god and religion in general is the cause of much trouble.

Speaking for myself, as an atheist, I don't "hate God." That would be impossible. I could more "hate" god than I could hate Zeus.

You're joking with me Hanna Solo...he's all but accused God of being nothing more than a hateful war mongerer...he accused him/that/whomever by name even!

You're joking with me Hanna Solo...he's all but accused God of being nothing more than a hateful war mongerer...he accused him/that/whomever by name even!

Um, no, he hasn't. He's saying the BELIEF in god (various) causes much trouble and grief. I'm not not going to be presumptious enough to speak for him, but again, as an atheist, I don't believe god is a hateful war monger. How could I possibly think that? I don't believe "god" exists. God can't BE anything, to me.

And I'm going to repeat, again, that I actually have a certain respect and interest in the concept of faith in general and religion in specific as an important evolutionary branch of me, this specific individual human being, sitting here, typing this post. I don't think the species would have developed without a "faith" element in the genetic soup. I also think it's sort of like the appendix or wisdom teeth. Vistigical structures that have no inherent positive or negative impacts, unless they go wrong. My appendix seems to be chugging along. My wisdom teeth became a problem, so I had them yanked. Faith in good people is nice. Faith in bad people, is very, very bad. And in some of us, it never kicked in.

Well, you aren't alone in being fascinated by anthropology...I believe the interest in such is not exclusive to those who are sensible enough to believe that God is a great big fat lie.

Initially the premise of this OP purported to be about the relationship between state and church and asked about church run states..except it seems to have become a thread where we are supposed to battle it out with a dyed in the wool atheist extremist (the OP) over spiritual beliefs and the stupidity of those who have an innate theosophic bent..

Let's get back on topic...

Reading this thread the other day I had the thought that I bet more people have been killed in the name of profits than out of religious faith. Possibly even limited to "more people have been killed in the name of oil". Some day I might just research that to find out if my notion has any substance.

BTW, The religion I was raised in - a liberal evangelical church and the largest denomination in Canada ACTIVELY lobbied the government to allow gay marriage in Canada. They don't believe God makes mistakes. Ministers can be female or male, married or divorced or straight or gay.

The "troubles" was indeed between Protestants and Catholics, it became a situation of drugs running and protection rackets, ie pure gangsterism... But primarily was about religion, ever since the Protestant "Planters" in the 1600s till the forming of the UVF in the 1960s in response to Catholic IRA mini campaigns in the 40 and 50s...And with this statement:

From this day, we declare war against the IRA and its splinter groups. Known IRA men will be executed mercilessly and without hesitation. Less extreme measures will be taken against anyone sheltering or helping them, but if they persist in giving them aid, then more extreme methods will be adopted . . . we solemnly warn the authorities to make no more speeches of appeasement. We are heavily armed Protestants dedicated to this cause.

Wot was that:
Protestants dedicated to this cause.... OK, got it...

As for the "it's people" using religion for warfare, I disagree in so much that God told His people to wage war on some occasions, but, and I've had this out wi religious God scholars, and according to them, war can only be waged in His command... No such edicts have been declared since Jesus's time... So in that respect, I agree, people have used religion for reasons of war...

As for the world being flat, it's referenced in the Bible that the Earth is round, it's there in many places.. And only till the writings of Lanctantius was it well known that the Earth was a sphere... the ancient world knew fine well the Earth was round... Lanctantius was rejected and accused of heresy by the Church for his crap, as well as others after him who tried to say the Earth was flat... It was only in the 1800s with anti Christians writing their "histories" claiming the Church was advocating a flat earth that is was widely accepted, couple that with the advent of Darwinism (who plagiarised).. Ye get the message... Or maybe not...

Fingerless Glove wrote:Initially the premise of this OP purported to be about the relationship between state and church and asked about church run states..except it seems to have become a thread where we are supposed to battle it out with a dyed in the wool atheist extremist (the OP) over spiritual beliefs and the stupidity of those who have an innate theosophic bent..

Let's get back on topic...

Indeed I mentioned the church/state separation in the OP., but I titled it "Religion and stuff", so as to be deliberately flexible.
And hopefully no posts will be deleted for being "off-topic" here (because he's banned! )

HannaSolo wrote:I don't think the species would have developed without a "faith" element in the genetic soup. I also think it's sort of like the appendix or wisdom teeth. Vistigical structures that have no inherent positive or negative impacts, unless they go wrong.

An interesting thought Hanna, and I think that Dawkins alludes to that in his book, "The God Delusion".
I don't know if there are any small settlements/villages/tribes, living remotely from civilisation, who have "belief systems" that don't include some element of the "supernatural". I think it's more to do with man's need to have everything "explained" and "accounted for", than it is to do with some inherent sociological "need". But I don't know enough about it to comment really it's JMO.

Fingerless Glove wrote:You're joking with me Hanna Solo...he's all but accused God of being nothing more than a hateful war mongerer...he accused him/that/whomever by name even!

Not at all. I'm saying that the people who originated the myth, (that you base your version of your belief in god on) were a war like, superstitious people. Consequently, the concept of "just wars" have their origins in that same myth.

The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years), did so because the same myth about god, also declared that god had "given them the land".
Religion is at the heart of the "middle Eastern Conflict"
And as far as State/Church goes, the Balfour Declaration was a result of a Christian Prime Minister, who also believed in the "Promised Land" myth. And before him, Zionism had it's origins with Disraeli, who was himself Jewish.
60% of "Christians" in the USA., believe that Israel truly "belongs" to Jews, and that they're justified in their claim to that land. And the USA gives about $3 Billion pA in "Aid" to Israel.

The nature of US foreign aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel
to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world. Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign
aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees,
which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day. This amount excludes
the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual
donors. All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes
30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/aug2007/aidcut.html
State-sanctioned and funded violence and "ethnic cleansing", which has resulted in the dispossessed Palestinians, herded into the Gazza Ghetto, and forced to live "under siege", because they disagree with the Christian and Jewish "versions" of "history"...which have been used as justification for the theft of their land.
So my question to all you believers in a "Deity", is; do you also believe that "God gave Israel to the Jews"..?

I think many times politicians and religious leaders use God as an excuse for war. Maybe that's the only way to sell it to the public. We're all smart enough to know there is nothing godly about war.

Obviously, Jo, you feel very passionately about your beliefs. Others feel passionately about their beliefs too. While you may see it as a logical argument some people feel like it's a personal insult. Question their God, and you challenge the basic fiber of their personality.

Most of the people I know are Christians. They are not moguls, or politicians trying to inflict pain upon anyone. They do the best they can. They try to treat others with dignity and respect. They live lives of quiet desperation. They aren't trying to convert anyone to their faith. If they are wrong, so what? They aren't hurting anyone.

I think your heart is in the right place. I know there are some zealots out there who spew hatred and ignorance. I just hope you realize they are the exception, not the rule. Nobody in their right might mind wants to be affiliated with that kind of sick behavior. They have a warped sense of godliness and nobody likes them, not even other Christians.

I realize I live in an area where people are different than what most posters experience. I think we would all be better off if we would get rid of the tv's and newspapers, and actually talk to one another. What is the point in living if it's not to relate to others?




I have the sudden desire to wake up the neighborhood with "War Pigs" now.


PS- My understanding of Buddha (which is very limited) is that he was a human who attained enlightenment, and tried to share the way with others. I think it's wrong to claim he was a deity or godly. Dalai Llama said Buddhism has nothing to do with God, it has to do with humans. I guess I could dig out the direct quote if anyone wants it. It's it one of these books around here somewhere.


PPS- Someone much older and wiser once gave me a useful exercise. Take all the major religious books, read them, then report all the similarities and contrasts between them. How are they alike? How are they different? What are the major points in each? It takes a true open mind and a truly loving individual to comprehend it. War mongers and politicians have no time for such an experience.