Sarkozy and the Roma

[saddle-tramp]

If you'd read any of my posts on such issues, you will know that I don't subscribe to such racial/ethnic/tribal/nationality stereotypes.
I don't doubt that there are people who believe themselves to be that (Roma)
Or that others may agree and identify them as that also.
But I think both are probably erroneous, and were DNA tests to be conducted,
they would probably turn out to be exactly the same 'genetic mongrels' as the rest of us "Thoroughbreds".....

So I think this is both "knee-jerk" and slightly racist, and like most racism, probably has no basis in fact.

We are all "Gypsies", our DNA tells us that.
We have always traveled, we have always migrated.

If any individuals commit crimes, only those individuals should be punished,
not "everyone who looks a little bit like them"..
or dresses like them,
or sounds like them,
or who comes from the same area as them


My "highly intelligent" response.....
JMO

Such a knee jerk reaction and labelling... I'm not really surprised....

[chopper]

any individuals commit crimes, only those individuals should be punished,
not "everyone who looks a little bit like them"..
or dresses like them,
or sounds like them,
or who comes from the same area as them

yes..but the many individuals who are causing the mither in france seem to come from the roma people..wouldnt it be just best to nip things in the bud and send em all home or just dont have em come into your country in the first place..? it would save alot of hassle in the future..


i looked and there was a pale horse..

its rider was named death..

and hell was following close behind him..

REVELATION

[Jo van]

So this thread is nonsense because you believe that everybody else is wrong and you are right....

Your words, NOT mine.

I should have considered what you would reply before bothering to post this because of course you were going to slam the thread on the basis that you believe that we are all one and the same and to think otherwise is racist..

I certainly haven't "slammed this thread". (If I did would it really matter anyway...?)

And you're confusing two separate things there.
I do believe there is only one Human race. (With almost infinite variations within it)
But I don't think that anyone who thinks otherwise, is a racist.
I only think people are racist if they associate a particular behaviour with all people of similar physical appearance, as in this case.
Purely because I think that that's illogical, and unfounded.
You can't tell what a person is "like", by simply looking at them, or their passport.
Physical appearance gives no clue to a person's 'personality' and tendencies.

yes..but the many individuals who are causing the mither in france seem to come from the roma people..wouldnt it be just best to nip things in the bud and send em all home or just dont have em come into your country in the first place..? it would save alot of hassle in the future..

"Seems" being the operative word.
I see where you're coming from Chop, but ask yourself how you'd react, if you hear people stereotyping 'Scousers', as all being "thieving rogues"..?
And we already know how FG responds to all Irish being called "Pikeys"
I still say you should punish only the perpetrators of crimes, not others from the"race" they 'belong' to.

Stereotypes are dangerous, and inaccurate.
And regardless of whatever culture and 'Norms' a person has been raised in,
people can change when put into other environments.
No-one chooses their parents, or place of birth.

So I don't understand your angry response to my opinion FG.,
I know that my views are a bit 'out-there', but I can justify the conclusions,
and the thought processes which led me to them.
The only people who I think are "wrong" are racists,
and this is a racist action being proposed, as outlined in the OP.
That is my opinion.

[chopper]

see where you're coming from Chop, but ask yourself how you'd react, if you hear people stereotyping 'Scousers', as all being "thieving rogues"..?

iv heard it 100s of times jo and have got used to it..and although the majority of liverpool people are honest and hard working..there is still a large criminal element that give the rest a bad name..and if 1000s of scousers settled in france and then the crime rate shot up overnight because a big section of them were causing trouble and crime..then i wouldnt blame the french goverment for deporting the lot of them..nobody likes there country over run with criminals from another land..and some countrys like the usa and australia and france are more tougher on them than others..it should be up to the romas themselves to weed out the bad uns from the good uns and co operate with the french goverment..then maybe this scourge wouldnt be neccessery..this ultra left wing approach of burying your head in the sand and say its unfair to blame these people and stereotype them..when its clear that they are wreaking havoc..is wrong..what do you expect sarkozy and his goverment to do..just smile and shrug there shoulders while these criminals pilage there country and cause mayhem..? or do somthing about it..? when in rome..do as the romans do..get a job and live a decent life instead of robbing and begging from your host nation..

[belinda]

What is the ethos of the Roma, ....exactly?

The Roma are the true Gypsies (via Egypt, which is the origin of the Gypsy / gitane / gitano name). The are believed to have come from - ultimately - the Indian sub-continent, with an Indo-Aryan language and genetic markers that put their origins in either Pakistan or Southern India. i grew up knowing them as Romany and the spelling Romani is sometimes seen. A great many of their religious traditions about purity are very closely related to the Hindu religion.

They aren't tinkers or pikeys (both originally honourable terms, please note) or even diddakois (a diddakoi is a half-gypsy), although like any band of travelling people any theft along their travels became associated with them and thus they garnered a bad name.

They never used to be beggars, it used to be a point of their honour creed that they always worked - making and selling washing pegs or selling bunches of lucky heather or telling fortunes when it wasn't harvest time or when other land-work could not be found.

During the second World War they were also a group sent to the concentration camps, 500,000 to 1.5 million being the estimate of deaths, it's an estimate because there has never been an accurate count of the Roma.

For a Roma settling into a fixed residence used to be anathema, i am not sure if the ethos has changed now.

That is my understanding of the Roma. There's a whole load more on Wikipedia if one cares to look it up.

.

[Fingerless Glove]

Stereotypes are dangerous, and inaccurate.
And regardless of whatever culture and 'Norms' a person has been raised in,
people can change when put into other environments.
No-one chooses their parents, or place of birth.

Right...but it would appear you feel it's ok to condemn people who are religious because they are stupid enough to adhere to the constricts of their chosen church's beliefs.

So I don't understand your angry response to my opinion FG.,

Oh I'm not supposed to have noticed your attempt to sabotage my thread with your first post on here then???

I know that my views are a bit 'out-there', but I can justify the conclusions,
and the thought processes which led me to them.
The only people who I think are "wrong" are racists,
and this is a racist action being proposed, as outlined in the OP.
That is my opinion.

What I would like to debate is whether or not it is actually racist of Sarkozy to deport the Roma, I don't want to be told that it is because I'm not so sure the situation is that cut and dry...and I absolutely believe that each EU country should be responsible for their citizens..

If it's happening in Romania and Bulgaria, that the Roma are being treated so badly there that they have no choice but to leave for a better life, that, in fact the Romanians are exporting their problem rather than dealing with it, then that is irresponsible of them.

[chopper]

If it's happening in Romania and Bulgaria, that the Roma are being treated so badly there that they have no choice but to leave for a better life, that, in fact the Romanians are exporting their problem rather than dealing with it, then that is irresponsible of them.

i also think its quite irresposible of the roma people themselves not to try and deal with the issue of there own criminal element that is giving them a bad name and allowing them all to be tarred with the same brush..they should make more of an effort to show the world that they are not all beggars and theives..as the ross kemp documentry shows..its mostly one clan that is doing all the crime..and if the roma people are being hounded out of the countrys were they have lived for 100s of years because of there criminal activities..how do you expect other countrys to welcome them with open arms and a warm smile..? and as for sarkozy and the french being racist for not wanting them..well..saying white christmas or black pudding in this country is deemed racist by the pc do gooders..so what the feck..?

[Jo van]

Right...but it would appear you feel it's ok to condemn people who are religious because they are stupid enough to adhere to the constricts of their chosen church's beliefs.

"Chosen" being the word.
Like I said, no-one chooses their "race" (Physical appearance), or their origins.
I have always maintained that you don't need to be, what you're told to be.
All I've ever said is that people should question exactly what they "are".
Look objectively at old beliefs, and people will realise that they're often based on primitive , superstitious beliefs.

Oh I'm not supposed to have noticed your attempt to sabotage my thread with your first post on here then???

My first post was a "joke"...
You got angry with my second, which wasn't.

What I would like to debate is whether or not it is actually racist of Sarkozy to deport the Roma, I don't want to be told that it is because I'm not so sure the situation is that cut and dry...and I absolutely believe that each EU country should be responsible for their citizens..

If it's happening in Romania and Bulgaria, that the Roma are being treated so badly there that they have no choice but to leave for a better life, that, in fact the Romanians are exporting their problem rather than dealing with it, then that is irresponsible of them.

If you read the wiki article, you'll see that they have always been persecuted, in their own countries, and wherever they've moved to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

When the Romani people arrived in Europe, the initial curiosity of its residents soon changed to hostility against the newcomers. The Romani were enslaved for five centuries in Wallachia and Moldavia, until abolition in 1856.[49] Elsewhere in Europe, they were subject to ethnic cleansing, abduction of their children, and forced labor. In England, Romani were sometimes hung or expelled from small communities; in France, they were branded and their heads were shaved; in Moravia and Bohemia, the women were marked by their ears being severed. As a result, large groups of the Romani moved to the East, toward Poland, which was more tolerant, and Russia, where the Romani were treated more fairly as long as they paid the annual taxes.[50]

Like I said, I realise my views are the minority, but I still feel that "racial"/"national" stereotypes are simply the beginnings of bigotry, as well as being completely unfounded.
EG:

although the majority of liverpool people are honest and hard working..there is still a large criminal element that give the rest a bad name..and if 1000s of scousers settled in france and then the crime rate shot up overnight because a big section of them were causing trouble and crime..then i wouldnt blame the french goverment for deporting the lot of them.

I'd still have to disagree Chop, and I would always be asking why a group isn't "judged" on what the "majority" are "like", not the minority. It makes no sense to me.
Where do you draw the 'line'...?
Should all 'Englishmen' be "tarred with the same brush" as those idiots who go abroad fighting at football matches, and getting drunk...?
Should they all be 'judged' on the behaviour of the "chavs"...?
Is that what the "English are like"...?
Should ALL "white" people be Judged by what the Nazis did...?

You can see the problem surely...?

[chopper]

I'd still have to disagree Chop, and I would always be asking why a group isn't "judged" on what the "majority" are "like", not the minority. It makes no sense to me.
Where do you draw the 'line'...?
Should all 'Englishmen' be "tarred with the same brush" as those idiots who go abroad fighting at football matches, and getting drunk...?
Should they all be 'judged' on the behaviour of the "chavs"...?
Is that what the "English are like"...?
Should ALL "white" people be Judged by what the Nazis did...?

You can see the problem surely...?

i see were your coming from jo..but when a small wave of immigrants settle in another country..and then suddenly alot of problems arise within that community of immigrants such as crime and begging..etc and it then upsets the people of the host nation..and if your the head of the host nation and its your job to deal with it..then what do you do..? sarkozy cant go around and arrest innoccent french people for the crimes that the romas have committed..now that would be wrong..so he is doing the right thing and sorting the culprits out..who just happen to be romas..and it seems to me they have had enough of them and want them out..even there own countrys want them out..so they must be doing somthing wrong jo..they cant all be innoccent and poor victims of evil racist french folk..

[Jo van]

Like I said at the beginning Chop, I've got no problem with the perpetrators of crimes being caught and punished,
and if that means deportation, then so be it, but I can't see the logic in punishing innocent people.
If there's a problem, then the police should get the people causing it, no-one else.

"You reap what you sow"
But you should never have to suffer for the actions of other people.

There's no logic or justice in that.
IMO