Religion and stuff...

[Jo van]

We've all been tiptoeing around it in many threads, and I've just read a reference to Church/State.
So I thought I'd start a thread to slog it out in..
It also gives me the opportunity to use the word "Antidisestablishmentarianism", in a gratuitous manner...
Is religion a good, or a bad thing...?
Should the Head of State also be the Head of the Church...?

Why are there so many politicians who say they believe (eg in the USA) compared to the general population...?
Do people use religion in a sociological way..? (Eg to win votes)

And why... if the church abhors violence, does religion seem to be at the root of so many conflicts...?

Is it about time that religions were consigned to history...?

Was God an Astronaut..?

Why did he impregnate a betrothed 13 year-old virgin...?

If there is a god, why do I need other men/women to TELL me about him..?

What does it all mean..?

Does any of it matter..?

What was I talking about....?

[~Nx~]

g'night jo van... dont forget to say your prayers...

x

[Stress Free]

It is all associated with having a meaning or using a meaning to life to suit your goals and objectives.

[Fingerless Glove]

Boring!!

What was the actual reference to church and state which you read and why do you see such a reference to it as an opportunity to belittle believers in some god instead of actually discussing examples of church states..

It's no secret that the Republic of Ireland was to all intents and purposes a church state...and the Catholic Church may well have enjoyed free reign on this divided Island within the Republic for almost a century but the tide is changing big time here now - thank God for that, won't be long before the youth of tomorrow throw off those chains and we'll be done with that nonsense.

Although, with a predicted 200,000 of our youth due to emigrate in the next few years and with all the immigrants we have here now..maybe we will continue having our laws dictated to us by some ott religious zealot grouping.

I'm just pleased right now with our TD's voting in the civil partnership bill and not paying any heed whatsoever to the Church - hurrah!

[Jo van]

What was the actual reference to church and state which you read and why do you see such a reference to it as an opportunity to belittle believers in some god instead of actually discussing examples of church states..

The reference which made me feel it needed it's own thread was:

Given recent debate over the separation (or not) of Church and State in the USA, i find nothing wrong with my statement that the nation is ostensibly Christian.

And:

Now perhaps I have overstated/knee-jerked my reaction to your post as you are from Mother England and not aware of the deep and dangerous nature of the conflict that is taking place behind the scenes with an ultra right wing religious group tantamount to a Christian Taliban, fighting a war of culture in North America, the Dominionists/Reconstructionists, who seek to subvert mainstream Christianity while politicizing religion. So I tend to get a little touchy at references to a "Christian Nation" and seek extreme specificity...

debate-forum-f21/ground-zero-mosque-t2062-60.html
I can understand Moonbat's concerns, and I share them.
The USA still has "In God we Trust" written (ironically) on it's money!
Apart from the USA, and the UK, (Including Eire), there are plenty of examples elsewhere in the world, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, etc.
Even though the three 'Abrahamic' Faiths, (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in chronological order) have the same Old Testament Root, and geographic origins, they all believe ("Devoutly") that their "Version" is the "True Word of God".
This results in intolerance, and an unwillingness to compromise.
Witness the wars that have raged over Jerusalem etc. They all believe that they cannot deviate from what is "written", and it can't be modified or amended. To suggest or attempt any variation is "blasphemous"
The current battles within the christian church regarding "equality" for women, reflect this "conservatism".

I was also interested in the "social drivers" for people "belonging" to a religion, as I am a sceptic.

Religion in North America spans the period of Native American dwelling, European settlement, and the present day. Its various faiths have been a major influence on art, culture, philosophy and law.

Between them, the USA, Mexico and Canada account for 85% of the population of North America. Religion in each of these countries is dominated by Christianity (Mexico: 95%; USA: 78%; Canada 75%).

Irreligiosity (atheism, agnosticism) is highest in Canada and the US (Canada: 16% USA: 15%), and accounts for roughly 10% of North American population.

Minority religions include Islam (Canada: 2%; USA: 0.6%) and Judaism (USA: 2.2%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_America

Politicians frequently discuss their religion when campaigning, and many churches and religious figures are highly politically active. However, to keep their status as tax-exempt organizations they must not officially endorse a candidate. There are Christians in both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, but evangelical Christians tend to support the Republican Party whereas more liberal Christians and secular voters[68] tend to support the Democratic Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States

Compared with general population

The most basic breakdown of the above data indicates that 85% of the Senate is Christian (compared with 79.8% of the population) and 13% of the Senate is Jewish (compared with 1.4% of the population. According to the data, no Senator falls under the category "No Religion/Atheist/Agnostic" - a category embodied by 15.0% of the U.S. population according to the 2001 Census [but, two are under the description "unspecified].

The following list compares reported religious affiliations of U. S. Senators to religious statistics of the demographics of the United States of America:

* International Church of the Foursquare Gospel are represented by 1% of the Senate for 0.1% of the population (10.00×)
* Jews are represented by 13% of the Senate for 1.4% of the population. (9.29×)
* Episcopalians are represented by 7% of the Senate for 1.8% of the population. (5.55×)
* Presbyterians are represented by 14% of the Senate for 2.8% of the population. (5.00×)
* Latter-Day Saints are represented by 6% of the Senate for 1.4% of the population. (4.29×)
* Methodists are represented by 8% of the Senate for 7.2% of the population. (1.11×)
* Roman Catholics are represented by 26% of the Senate for 25.9% of the population. (1.00×)
* Lutherans are represented by 3% of the Senate for 4.6% of the population. (0.65×)
* Baptists are represented by 8% of the Senate for 17.2% of the population. (0.46×)
* Muslims are represented by 0% of the Senate for 2% of the population. (0.00×)
* Unaligned are represented by 0% of the Senate for 15.0% of the population. (0.00×)

It seems to me that politicians in the USA would be "afraid" to state that they were Atheist, because:

A Gallup Poll released in 2007[74] indicated that 53% of Americans would refuse to vote for an atheist as president, up from 48% in 1987 and 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States

So 15% of the population of the USA, who are Atheists, don't have a single Senator who openly shares their "non-Belief".
I find that troubling.....

[swan]

Burn the witches!

[cyst & deceased]

Some people are as bad about preaching atheism as others are about preaching religion. I'm not interested in anyone's agenda.

[Jo van]

Some people are as bad about preaching atheism as others are about preaching religion. I'm not interested in anyone's agenda.

I'm not at all "preaching atheism", you really can't "preach" a "non-belief" can you...?
The whole world is affected by the conflicts between Jews and Muslims and Christians in the 'Middle East'.
In this country we suffered from the bombing campaigns of the IRA, and the catholic/protestant divide is still present in that, and other communities.
The rise of the right-wing "Christian Fundamentalist" type conservatives in US politics, is also a cause for concern.

Also, the "church" opposes single-sex marriages,
homosexuality in general,
abortion laws,
censorship laws,
and equal rights for women.
Their views have always taken precedence over the views of the 'lay' community when making Laws.
Bishops still have seats in our second chamber, the House of Lords.

We also have all the problems caused by the religious "requirements":
The Bhurka,
Turbans,
Religious celebrations and holidays,
Sabbaths, and what you're 'allowed' to do.
the food "requirements", and their associated ritual slaughter methods.
People get sacked for their beliefs, or sacked for their non-beliefs.
There was a thread recently about a teacher being sacked for "praying" for a terminally sick pupil, against the wishes of the parents..
Other Court cases about.... "The right to wear a crucifix" or a "bangle", or a "knife", or a "hat", or a "ring"...etc etc etc.

I'm not "preaching", they do more than enough of that!
But all this stuff is forced on me,
we live in a democracy, and I'm entitled to question the "rules" that I find myself being forced to live under.
And to question the 'wisdom' of perpetuating things, simply because they've "always been that way"

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, no-ones forcing you to partake.
If you're happy with the way things are in the world, and religion's influence on that, that's fine, but you shouldn't criticise those who do wish to discuss it, with a 'throw away' remark like "Preaching Atheism"....
JMO

[Fingerless Glove]

Apart from the USA, and the UK, (Including Eire),[....]

I don't know if you wrote the above to wind me up but Eire, as you call it, is not part of the UK..don't make the mistake of suggesting that again please.

In this country we suffered from the bombing campaigns of the IRA, and the catholic/protestant divide is still present in that, and other communities.

The Irish nationalist cause has fcuk all to do with religion - the rampant sectarianism proliferated by protestant loyalists in the North did help recruit civil rights campaigners as active members of the IRA though...

And just so you and other people realise....the Irish suffered far worse than terrorist bombs for hundreds of years at the hands of English governments and colonialist rule.

[Jo van]

I don't know if you wrote the above to wind me up but Eire, as you call it, is not part of the UK..don't make the mistake of suggesting that again please.

Not at all, apologies FG. It should have read "and Eire", and I called it that, because that's what it used to say on their stamps.
(I'm sure I've flown to Dublin without a passport though....?)
But I take your point.
The Catholic/Protestant sectarianism also exists with the Celtic/Rangers thing in Scotland too I think...?

And it's still "Illegal" for a Monarch to marry a Catholic, so I think that sectarianism has been "institutionalised" by the Queen being the head of state and church.
It would require an act of parliament to change that I think...?