Religion and stuff...

[saddle-tramp]

The actions of Israel are a glowing example of why I think that religion causes problems.
The country was founded on religious beliefs, in 1948
Rather than go over it all again, for those interested, I go by the facts supplied by these Jews,
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
who seem very fair in their view of what happened, and what a terrible injustice it continues to be.
If ever there was an example of the worst excesses of "State Religion",
Israel, with it's 'apartheid' racist policies is it.

And as long as our and the US' Governments support this disgraceful antithesis of 'civilisation', the muslims will continue to distrust the so called 'civilised' western (christian) countries.

You're entitled to your views Tramp, but they are in a minority.
The UN has issued some 160 Resolutions against Israel, mainly about their illegal settlements and occupation of territories..

When I see all those nodding, bearded Orthodox Jews, at the "Wailing Wall", I don't feel any "respect".

Hahahahah...propaganda lying racist crap...

Islam and Muslims are horrendously guilty of the charges you cite that israel is, I can't even begin to know where to start with them...

How many UN and Human rights abuses have not only cowardly lying Muslim terrorist scum committed, like hacking innocent peoples heads off, they're so retarded they even hack off the heads and shoot the people who are desperately trying to help them....

But all by the by, let's ahve a look at yer little pet website shall we?

ifamericansknew.org ay?... Ok.. Ran by whom?... Well, a quick search draws this result (amongst others), ran by a person called Allison Weir:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 113AAShjYK

Where it says:
"If Americans Knew, a non-profit corporation, is primarily a one-person operation founded by free-lance journalist Alison Weir in 2001."

A recent 990 form indicates the non-profit gets all of its money from "gifts, grants, and contributions" but doesn't specify the sources. Board members are Richard Boswell, Paul Findley, Andrew Foss, Andrew Kilgore and Elizabeth Viering and are all listed at the same address: 6312 SW Capitol Hwy #163, Portland, OR 97239.

Findley is a former congressman. Kilgore is a former ambassador. I'm not sure the affiliations of the others though I did find that Peter Viering, Elizabeth's husband, is on the board of a group of similar political persuasion, the Council.for the National Interest, whose founding chairman is Findley. Alison Weir is also on the board of the CNI's Foundation.
Source(s):
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Artic…

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990s/990…

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for…

http://cnifoundation.org/index.php?optio…"

OK...so, who is this CNI?

OK...
http://laurencejarvikonline.blogspot.co ... n-cni.html

I quote:
"In early 2006, for example, CNI leaders met in Damascus with Hamas chieftain Khaled Meshal" This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal speaks for itself on this chap and we all know the terrorist leanings and cowardly acts of hiding behind children whilst firing guns at the IDF hoping to get a response then when the children get shot, they shout what they shout:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=58837
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
...But you support this group of thugs, ok...

Moving on, we read:

"CNI and its sister organization, the Council for the National Interest Foundation (CNIF), have maintained close ties with individuals linked to Islamic terror groups. Former CNIF Board Member Abdurahman Alamoudi, an open supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah, is currently serving a 23-year prison term for illegally accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from top Libyan officials, plotting to murder Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah (on behalf of Libyan President Muammar Qadhafi), and violating tax and immigration laws (“Council for Islamist Interests” FrontPageMagazine.com, Aug. 5, 2004)"
Ohh...I see...Offcourse, they denied alll knowledge, but:

"A 1999 CNIF press release showed a delegation that included CNI President Eugene Bird meeting with leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah. Also in 1999, CNI co-founder Richard Curtiss was the featured speaker at a Jerusalem Festival organized by the Islamic Association for Palestine, which has distributed Hamas communiqués including a charter calling for jihad against Jews."

"Dr. Laura Drake is another extremist with ties to CNI. In 1993 and 1994, Drake served as the organization's Director of Research. By 1998, she was Director of the United Association for Studies and Research, an organization that, according to FBI Special Agent Robert Wright, "served as the command headquarters for the United States-based Hamas enterprise." George Mason University professor Peter Leitner, President of the Higgins Counterterrorism Research Center, similarly referred to the UASR as "a front organization for a terrorist group" and described it as "part of the international terrorist network." In a speech to the Al-Hewar Center in 2000, at a time when Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was offering far-reaching concessions to resolve Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians, Drake urged Arabs to refuse to normalize relations with Israel."
So Israel has been bending over backwards, but this yer pet website ran by terrorists supporters calls for obstruction to peace...

"CNI Foundation Chairman Paul McCloskey refered to Israel as "an ugly little nation" and "a potential enemy of the United States." McCloskey stirred up controversy in 2000 when he was a featured speaker at a conference of the Institute for Historical Review, a Holocaust denial group, appearing with several notorious Holocaust deniers, like Arthur Butz, Robert Faurisson, David Irving and Ernst Zündel."
I dunno the others, but have heard about nugget head Irving (many a discussion about this character in the re-enacitng community), I guess you agree wi him?

But this is the best:
" And CNI Chairman Paul Findley has accused the Mossad (Israeli intelligence) of playing a role in the JFK assassination and attempting to kill President George Bush." ... Like WTF

But to sum up:
"The Council for the National Interest essentially functions as the American arm of an Arab propaganda campaign to weaken bonds between the US and Israel by promoting the Arab narrative of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This campaign inverts reality, casting Israel, a liberal democracy, as a racist, oppressive regime while ignoring the dictatorial nature of many of the Arab regimes CNI favors."

What the ADL has to say about Weir (read between the lines, she's a nutter):
http://www.adl.org/Israel/anti_israel/a ... flipmode=4

Right, according to Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/28/g ... war-crimes

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians."
That is a War Crime...

During the December 2008-January 2009 fighting, rockets launched from Gaza killed three Israeli civilians and wounded dozens. Hamas's armed wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for all three fatal attacks.
Aw, it's ok to kill Jews innit?
"Two Palestinian girls also died when a Palestinian rocket struck inside Gaza."

Wot, no cry for "murdering basterds"

[saddle-tramp]

Mmmm...:
http://www.israpundit.com/archives/24411

"As shown by the material from Alison Weir’s 501(c)(3) tax exempt Web site, “If Americans Knew,” the new President of the 501(c)(3) tax exempt Council for the National Interest is intellectually dishonest, noting that a half-truth or distortion of facts is effectively a lie. We direct our reader’s attention to the colorful bar graphs including particularly,"


And:
"Chart showing that Israel is holding over 7000 Palestinians prisoner. 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)

The Israeli being held hostage by Palestinians is Gilad Shalit, a kidnapping victim who was never accused, tried, or convicted of any crime by any court of law. The Palestinians imprisoned by Israel include criminals who have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of violent felonies including terroristic violence and murder. CNI President Alison Weir is therefore using 501(c)(3) tax exempt money to misrepresent the situation in the Middle East, specifically by equating a crime victim (Shalit) to violent felons, some of whom would be either on Death Row or doing life without parole in a maximum security prison had they been convicted in the United States instead of Israel. We need to ask whether If Americans Knew should continue to be tax exempt under these circumstances.

IRC § 501(c)(3) states that no substantial part of the activities of an otherwise qualified organization may be the carrying on of propaganda or otherwise attempting to influence legislation.
…A nonpartisan analysis, study, or research is an objective and independent exposition of a particular subject matter. A study may advocate a particular position or viewpoint so long as there is a sufficiently full and fair exposition of the pertinent facts to enable the public or an individual to form an independent opinion or conclusion. However, where an analysis, study, or research merely presents unsupported opinion, distorted facts, inflammatory and disparaging terms, or conclusions based more on strong emotional feelings rather than objective factual evaluations, it is not educational and nonpartisan.

Form 13909 is used to report misuse of 501(c)(3) tax exempt money to the Internal Revenue Service. It would be instructive to go through “If Americans Knew” to find all the inflammatory propaganda and distortions of facts (a glaring one was shown above), package it up, and send it to IRS EO Classification, Mail Code 4910DAL, 1100 Commerce Street Dallas, TX 75242-1198, faxed to 214-413-5415 or emailed to eoclass “at” irs.gov." Mmmm...now that would a larff to see...

And this:
"It is also to be noted that Alison Weir apparently denies Israel’s right to exist as shown by her Nakba Package. In other words, she goes well beyond contesting the territory that Israel occupied after the Arabs started three wars; she refers to the creation of pre-1967 Israel as a “catastrophe.” The fact that somebody who denies Israel’s right to exist might create good cause to challenge the Council for the National Interest’s tax exemption as well."


Hope they get their arses whipped...

[belinda]

And btw, one of Arafats uncles [Edit] was quite happily sitting in Berlin drinkin tea wi his mate Hitler, and when he was not, he was inciting racial hatred and busily forming his Muslim SS...

This is not the first time you have used this statement in this forum, and the accompanying pictures that i care not to repost.

Whilst you otherwise present an argument that i can follow, i fail to see how the fact that Arafat's uncle was an ally of Hitler has any bearing on how Arafat himself behaved. If there is a link, please demonstrate it.

My uncle was a PoW of the Japanese. Does that mean i hate the Japanese and refuse to eat boiled rice? Of course not. If you wish to posit that Arafat was a Nazi in thought and / or deed as part of your reasoning for your disapproval of the Palestinians, please provide examples of his behaviour, not his uncle's.

.

[saddle-tramp]

And btw, one of Arafats uncles [Edit] was quite happily sitting in Berlin drinkin tea wi his mate Hitler, and when he was not, he was inciting racial hatred and busily forming his Muslim SS...

This is not the first time you have used this statement in this forum, and the accompanying pictures that i care not to repost.

Whilst you otherwise present an argument that i can follow, i fail to see how the fact that Arafat's uncle was an ally of Hitler has any bearing on how Arafat himself behaved. If there is a link, please demonstrate it.
.

First off, I thought "ehh , are you being deceptively stupid, honestly confused, or just kidding"?...

I mean, i've already went in depth in another thread in this forum all about the Grand Mufti and his hatred for the Jews, Arafat called him Uncle, though the great Wikedpee distances that statement by implying they where both from different clans, Arafat from Gaza, Husseini from the Jerusalem clan ... Both where big time players in the "Palestinian Cause", Husseini referred to as the father of that cause... all by the by...

I've already cited this:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat ... _mufti.php
Where it says:
'Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to "our hero al-Husseini" as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance."


Again, same site, different page, where it says:
"Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini was born on August 24, 1929 in Cairo, his father a textile merchant who was a Palestinian with some Egyptian ancestry, his mother from an old Palestinian family in Jerusalem. His full name is also written as Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. Arafat shortened his name to obscure his kinship with the notorious ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini who collaborated with the Nazis during World War II. Arafat has also been known by the nom de guerre Abu Amar (or Abu Ammar). ["Yasser" is also sometimes spelled "Yasir" or "Yassir".]"


Hope that clears up any confusion...

[saddle-tramp]

My uncle was a PoW of the Japanese. Does that mean i hate the Japanese and refuse to eat boiled rice? Of course not. If you wish to posit that Arafat was a Nazi in thought and / or deed as part of your reasoning for your disapproval of the Palestinians,
.

So wot part of any of my statements have indicated disapproval of Palestinians?

[Jo van]

Well my thread was really about ALL religions, and the problems they cause, so while I'm in agreement with you about the excesses of Islamic Governments, and their execution methods etc. The main reason I raised the Israeli issue, was because this is a country founded on religious beliefs. "That God gave the land to them".

You seem purely focused on "Islamophobia", and completely overlook the main point, which is that their religious beliefs have driven the establishment of their country of Israel, in the Land "formerly known as " Palestine.

The only reason I used the JATO website, was because it gives a good overview of what happened..
You can argue all you like about the details, I'm no expert, but the facts and the chronology can't be argued with.
Before 1948 there was no "Israel"..
Not being a believer myself, if I'm honest, I feel that they should give back all of the land they have stolen. I don't believe that they have a "right to exist" either. But now there have been two generations born in Israel, the situation gets more complicated as time goes on, not less.
You obviously believe that god gave them the land, and therefore the "rights" to return, and to buldoze the villages, massacre the people, and then to bleat about their "under siege" status.
I believe that they have caused all these problems themselves, and that there will never be peace, as long as there is denial about what went on.
They stole the land from people already living there, and they did so by means of superior military strength, and the backing of the west.
They did so purely because the bible says that it used to belong to them.
Religious beliefs, that I don't share.
You can dress it up any way you like, and show links to discredit people, but the facts are, that before 1948, there was no such country as Israel.
This gives a good graphic representation:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... oss001.jpg

[saddle-tramp]

That's it.... That takes the biscuit

When proven wrong, pull out the racist "you are an islamaphobic" card... And your constant rants about Israel and Jews?

Israel wasn't founded ON religion, but was formed through a racial group who where almost annihilated in Europe, and had their enemies not lost WWII, the likes of the Palestinian leader and father of the PLO (through proxy) would have carried that annihilation onto the mid east.. And YOU support this...

And you accuse me of (something)phobia?

Laughable and embarrassing watching ye trying to squirm out of it...

Dress it all up you want Jo, but after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, that along with all the little nations grabbing land for themselves, and power plays, it was blindingly obvious a homeland for the Jews was going to be a reality, and they where quite happy for the smaller part of the whole of the mid east, and indeed paid dearly for that land, but the greedy Arabs/Muslims wanted it all in their hatred which is sprinkled all through their guidebook... the fact is, the Arabs, as soon as they could, attacked this tiny nation from all side and they got their arses kicked and I find they have a bloody cheek complaining to the world for something they wanted and still want themselves... In fact, they not only want the land, they want to do what the Nazis done,a nd kill every Jew in the world, and YOU support this...

Sorry, but I have the feeling you are a Nazi sympathiser by proxy...

[Jo van]

Israel wasn't founded ON religion, but was formed through a racial group who where almost annihilated in Europe, and had their enemies not lost WWII, the likes of the Palestinian leader and father of the PLO (through proxy) would have carried that annihilation onto the mid east.. And YOU support this...

Israelis aren't a "race", it's a "RELIGION". In order to be "Israeli", you need to be "Jewish"
Personally, I don't believe in "Races", "Religions", or even "nationalities",
so please don't insult me by claiming that I supported the Nazi Ideology, based on ermm... Race, religion and nationality.
I know that my views are considered "extreme", but I believe that all such definitions are erroneous, and just historical, man-made constructs.
If the occupying Israeli "immigrants" really are descendants of those exiled people 2000 years ago, then their DNA would surely be very similar to the very Palestinians who they have treated so badly...?
Ironically, they would be closer to being "blood relatives" than the countries those immigrants came from.

The holocaust had nothing to do with Palestinians, and to suggest otherwise just shows an enormous level of ignorance.
There may have been sympathisers there, but lets not forget that Britain's King Edward VII was also a "Nazi Sympathiser", and that had he not abdicated, things could have been very different.
Much of the British "Aristocracy" shared Hitler's view of "Superior Races" and of "Untermensch".
It is really these erroneous (In my opinion) views and beliefs that prompted my thread.
We seem 'doomed' to repeat the wars, and tribal conquests as long as these views abound.

[saddle-tramp]

Israelis aren't a "race", it's a "RELIGION"
. In order to be "Israeli", you need to be "Jewish"

that is basically Bulshit Jo... Even a quick wked can tell that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

By the by, I was talking about Jews, remember, my ref to the fall of the Ottoman Empire which occurred SEVERAL years before the formation of Israel, again, let's consult wikedpee:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(clas ... _of_humans)
There has been genetic studies made where it has been confirmed Jews share common genes separate form other racial groups...

Personally, I don't believe in "Races", "Religions", or even "nationalities",

Jo, you can "believe" what ye want...

so please don't insult me by claiming that I supported the Nazi Ideology,
You are certainly spouting anti Jewish themes in yer rants...


If the occupying Israeli "immigrants" really are descendants of those exiled people 2000 years ago, then their DNA would surely be very similar to the very Palestinians who they have treated so badly...?

BS alert... I notice in your "Israel has treated them so badly" rant, you miss out the FACT that the host countries of the "refugees" have treated their "fellow brothers and sisters" with such disgust and "apartheid" as you claim Israel is doing just now... You also missed out the other invading coutries who did steal land, not because of neccessity cos they where being attakced, but because of greed by their fellow Arabs, ohh no, you conveniently miss that out... Which naturally, because of your Anti Jewish bias, and your support for Husseini* leads me to think you are a Nazi sympathiser

The holocaust had nothing to do with Palestinians, and to suggest otherwise just shows an enormous level of ignorance.
The father of the PLO as I have proven by historical fact, was more than just an intellectual supporter of the Nazis...

There may have been sympathisers there, but lets not forget that Britain's King Edward VII was also a "Nazi Sympathiser", and that had he not abdicated, things could have been very different.
Ohhh, yes, and I agree... That's why we got rid of him.. And btw, oor Queen's hubby had a couple of high ranking Nazi's as in laws....

Much of the British "Aristocracy" shared Hitler's view of "Superior Races" and of "Untermensch".
Again, agreed...

We seem 'doomed' to repeat the wars, and tribal conquests as long as these views abound.
Aww fk Aye, stupid monkeys...


* By proxy, you are silent in condemnation in his Nazi sympathising and support...

[Jo van]

You are certainly spouting anti Jewish themes in yer rants...

Which naturally, because of your Anti Jewish bias, and your support for Husseini* leads me to think you are a Nazi sympathiser

Anti-Religion Rants actually!
I really don't care what people believe, until they start making war on people and stealing their land.
They can wear whatever silly hats they choose, they can eat whatever "holy" food they want, they can even put strings around our streets to allow them to leave the house for a walk on the "sabbath", and pretend that they've still "followed" their own stupid "laws" about not leaving the house.
The problems only arise when they try to impose their beliefs on others.
So when "religious" types campaign against abortion on "religious" grounds,
or Stem-Cell Research,
or "same sex marriages" (Nb. I don't believe in "marriage" either! )
Or for some form of 'censorship' of free speech, because it offends them, like the "Blasphemy laws"
Or invades and displaces an entire nation, and then says "look, God gave us this land"
Then I'm 'entitled' to object.

The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 is an Israeli law first passed on 31 July, 2003 and most recently extended in June 2008.[1] The law makes inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenshi ... Israel_Law

The Law of Return (Hebrew: חוק השבות, ḥok ha-shvūt) is Israeli legislation, enacted in 1950, that gives Jews, those of Jewish ancestry, and their spouses the right to migrate to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
About 3.5 Million people took advantage of this "Law".
Religion is a BELIEF, not a Fact..
People have died for these beliefs.
I find that tragic.