Religion and stuff...

[Jo van]

Jo....I really think it is not correct for you to be putting down a form of religious practice with no one here
practicing it to give some truths and understanding of why and what it's all about.

I would like to point out my oldest brother did emigrate to Israel from Alaska 17 or 18 years ago and immersed
himself into the life of what you call an Orthodox Jew and what they call Traditional Jews.

I personally do not relate to living one's life to such an extreme where, to them, everything they do is an honouring
of God....to me it's way too restrictive....but then I have never had any desire or calling to do what he's done...
In fact I'm quite the opposite, having both been raised (along with my other two brothers who also do not practice
Judaiism), in an observant, but not Orthodox home.

I am not able to enter this debate 'properly', as I have only just opened to this page, but, again, I do not appreciate the tone
of your putting down the practices of my brother and his wife and children that they believe are sacred when it seems
you are ignorant of the deeper meaning of why they do what they do.

See that's a classic "symptom" of religion (IMO), the more ridiculous/extreme/devout (delete as applicable) a person is, the more "respect" they demand/expect/get from the more secular, less ridiculous/extreme/devout adherents to the faith.
This results in a kind of apology for the more extreme people, from the less extreme.
eg. "I wouldn't object to abortions/homosexuals, but I fully understand why they shot those doctors"

And if your brother were killing teachers for daring to teach women, would you also not appreciate my "putting that down"...?
What if he stoned his wife to death....? What if he "sacrificed his son"...?

I'm not a believer in god, but you clearly are.
Do you really imagine an omnipotent creator of the universe, is going to be that bothered about what a person wears on a particular day...?
Do you really think he gives a sh1t if someone sees someone's hair...?
Or switches the light on, or answers the phone...?
Do you really believe that such a being would insist that people waste great swathes of their already short lives, performing rituals, and "Worshiping" him...? "Honouring God"....?
What sort of creature would demand such worship and honour...?
Absolutely none of it makes sense.
But you expect me to watch in "respectful silence"....?
While people just like your brother, steal land from people already living there, because they claim that "god gave it to them", and that Israel should be purely Jewish.
I have no "respect" for any of it, christian, muslim, or jew... because they don't do anything "respectable"
I ridicule them, simply because they are ridiculous.
It's a backwards looking, repressive, misogynistic, Luddite, way of living, that simply denies the truth of reality.
To do things in a non-thinking, prescribed way, to dress the same, to eat the same foods, and to repeat the same old dogma, until you've learned it by rote, is such an unoriginal life, that I feel it's a life completely wasted.

The "truth" about Israel, will haunt all those involved in it.
60 years ago, more people "bought into" all this mythology about Israel, and a lot more people lived in fear of religion, and let them get away with it unchallenged.
But now, people are better educated, and now, I'm not the only one laughing at them.
If you make ridiculous claims now, that's what happens, people will 'take the piss'...
"The king isn't wearing any clothes"
See^^^ There's just as much morality in fairy tales, or "Eastenders", as in the bible...

[saddle-tramp]

Same old record... "they stole land"... Which is basically bullshite and palestinian lies gullible westerners have bought into...

[Indigo]

And surely dictating the beliefs of one's children, TO them, is a form of "abuse"....?

Not that old chestnut..... another one straight out of the Gospel according to Dawkins. Is there any scientific evidence to support such an absurd claim? In fact there is plenty of evidence out there which indicates that teaching children the moral principles of religion has a positive impact on their behaviour..... children need clearly defined boundaries - not those so-called "flexible morals" you spoke of earlier..... I think we've seen enough evidence of what happens when children don't have any proper moral guidelines to adhere to. You've spouted off so many negatives regarding religion and incited religion as being the the main evil in this world. Whilst I'm not religious.... I can see there are many good things about it, especially the spiritual aspect of it. Anyway, it's hardly surprising that Dawkins is so anti-religious, given that he was the victim of sexual abuse by a priest.

[moon willow]

My post to you, jo, actually had nothing to do with religion, per se....it had to do with you probably unknowingly putting down my brother,
as if you are superior and better just because you do not see the value of someone who practices religion.

And if you'd read my post correctly, I specifically said that his practices are way too extreme for me, so don't start lumping
me in with your prejudicial and sarcastically ignorant view.

I actually am not a preacher of religion at all....but I have seen it has helped my brother in many ways to give direction
to his life....to bring a common bond in a wonderful marriage he is in now (and how many of us here can say that?)....
it has brought much blessing for him...

It's not for me. In fact I rebelled strongly against the religious upbringing I had, which led me to explore other forms
of spirituality, which have taught me a much more wholistic view than any religion I've come across....
where there is no exclusivity....

The Israel thread was going on when I first joined this site and I ended up researching and writing a concise and clear
history to share then that it's a myth that Jews 'stole the land', or took it believing it was God-given to them....

Sadly, after hours of working on it, I wrote it all on that thread, then went to post it, only to find it had timed out
and basically wiped my whole post out, and I had not known enough then to save it....

So, I gave up trying to educate the ignorant here who insist on putting a negative light on Israeli Jewish history...
But seeing the same old crap spewing forth here again, I will try and reconstruct that post I lost....

I am really saddened to see your sarcasm and how easily you now put me down, Jo....and you think you are so much better...

You yourself wrote, "Absolutely none of it makes sense." SO, rather than put it down, why don't you let yourself
be more open-minded? Can't you see it sounds like you think you are the omnipotent one....so, just because
it doesn't make sense to you, you think it should not make sense to anyone...and if it does, then you make them sound like idiots.

[HannaSolo]

In fact there is plenty of evidence out there which indicates that teaching children the moral principles of religion has a positive impact on their behaviour..... children need clearly defined boundaries - not those so-called "flexible morals" you spoke of earlier..... I think we've seen enough evidence of what happens when children don't have any proper moral guidelines to adhere to.

You make it sound like teaching religion is the same as teaching morals. It's not.

Maybe you didn't mean it in this way, but it also sounds like you think people who behave badly in this world are disproportionately those where weren't "taught" religion. I seriously doubt that. Some are, of course, but that's because they weren't brought up by moral non-religious people. Others were brought up by "religious" people with bad morals.

But it's the people who believe they ARE moral, because of religion, and teach their children the same, when they commit acts that any reasonable person would clearly see is outrageous, that it becomes an issue for the larger population. There are enough people from the three religions we're basically talking about on this thread who act this way that it's a danger to ALL people, even those of the same religions who aren't nuts.

That's the issue, as I see it. The world's too small and the weapons are too big, now, to let things run their course as it has in the past.

[Fingerless Glove]

And surely dictating the beliefs of one's children, TO them, is a form of "abuse"....?

Not that old chestnut..... another one straight out of the Gospel according to Dawkins. Is there any scientific evidence to support such an absurd claim? In fact there is plenty of evidence out there which indicates that teaching children the moral principles of religion has a positive impact on their behaviour..... children need clearly defined boundaries - not those so-called "flexible morals" you spoke of earlier..... I think we've seen enough evidence of what happens when children don't have any proper moral guidelines to adhere to. You've spouted off so many negatives regarding religion and incited religion as being the the main evil in this world. Whilst I'm not religious.... I can see there are many good things about it, especially the spiritual aspect of it. Anyway, it's hardly surprising that Dawkins is so anti-religious, given that he was the victim of sexual abuse by a priest.

You keep writing excellent posts on here Brown eyes..

I didn't know that about Dawkins, that's quite sad.

I was going to write to Moon Willow something similar to what you wrote, that Jovan equates religion with evil only and he can't see the positives of it at all...also, I happen to know that he doesn't know that much about the Catholic religion so some of his notions and ideas based on those notions/misconceptions are basically just lies he is refusing to stop repeating to himself...he simply doesn't want to know anything other than what he believes is true which isn't even true in the first place.

Jovan wrote:

I'm not a believer in god, but you clearly are.
Do you really imagine an omnipotent creator of the universe, is going to be that bothered about what a person wears on a particular day...?

What I don't understand is why a belief in God...'God' being the universal term for a higher power, means that you must be a creationist?

[Jo van]

Not that old chestnut..... another one straight out of the Gospel according to Dawkins. Is there any scientific evidence to support such an absurd claim?

There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that the world is approximately 4.7 Billion years old.
There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that the universe is approximately 13.7 Billion years old.
There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that we, and other animals evolved from earlier creatures.
Teaching people known lies is abuse.. That's not an absurd claim.
When Dawkins visited a school, on his program, he found that not a single girl , from 120, at a muslim school, studying "Science", believed anything other than "God's creation", and that the world was "6000 years old".
Teaching religion to children, when they are so absorbent, and trusting of adults to provide them with reliable, factual information, is a form of abuse. (IMO)
As Hanna said, religion doesn't have a monopoly on 'morality'. As you know, I am non-religious, does that make me 'immoral'...?
I taught my children morality, based on the 'golden rule': "If you wouldn't like someone doing it to you, don't do it to them, treat others as you would wish to be treated."

Same old record... "they stole land"... Which is basically bullshite and palestinian lies gullible westerners have bought into...

The UN., are not all "Westerners", nor are they "Gullible" (I hope), they say they "stole the land", I've researched the history, and I agree with that.

it had to do with you probably unknowingly putting down my brother,
as if you are superior and better just because you do not see the value of someone who practices religion.

What they "practice", is dogma and ritual., it achieves nothing, and pleases no deities.
All those special clothes, and food, and rituals don't make you a good person, it just shows you to be a gullible, suggestible person. And the sooner people start looking at these things objectively, the better off we'll all be.
But religions don't want that.
They don't want people to question "the word of god"
You still haven't answered: "What sort of creature would require such unquestioning obedience, and demand such "worship"...?
I don't mean to be offensive to you MW., or your brother, but if someone puts on a silly hat, has a silly haircut, and follows a way of life, laid out centuries ago, I will take the piss, because it's ridiculous.
I would do the same if someone dressed as Darth Vader, and "worshiped", by nodding and chanting alongside the London Eye.

So, I gave up trying to educate the ignorant here who insist on putting a negative light on Israeli Jewish history...
But seeing the same old crap spewing forth here again, I will try and reconstruct that post I lost....

I look forward to it, and would point you in the direction of a history of Israel written by "Jews Against the Occupation"
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
The Israelis are responsible themselves, for any "negative light" they may be viewed in.

I am really saddened to see your sarcasm and how easily you now put me down, Jo....and you think you are so much better...

I'm not "putting you down" MW, can you provide a quote where you think I've done that...?
And I certainly have never claimed to be "better" than anyone,
on the contrary, I feel the exact opposite. While you seem to be saying, that being religious, automatically makes a person "better", as evidenced by your apparent reverence towards those who follow extreme religious practice, and referred to as a "calling".

You yourself wrote, "Absolutely none of it makes sense." SO, rather than put it down, why don't you let yourself
be more open-minded? Can't you see it sounds like you think you are the omnipotent one....so, just because
it doesn't make sense to you, you think it should not make sense to anyone...and if it does, then you make them sound like idiots.

I accurately described just some of the very many requirements of a faith, and what they believe god wants them to wear, read, eat, do ... etc.
If that makes them "sound like idiots"....
Then that's not my fault....

[saddle-tramp]

There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that we, and other animals evolved from earlier creatures.

Any links with unequivocal proof Including ALL, and I mean ALL the fossilized evolutionary links, and not just speculation and assumption?

And BTW, yer mantra THEY stole the land, is Arab bullshite, and a cheek considering THEY the ARABS sold and then wanted to steal back land that was legitimately bought by Jews at premium rates...

[Jo van]

Any links with unequivocal proof Including ALL, and I mean ALL the fossilized evolutionary links, and not just speculation and assumption?

YES!
Plenty, including "missing" ones!

And BTW, yer mantra THEY stole the land, is Arab bullshite, and a cheek considering THEY the ARABS sold and then wanted to steal back land that was legitimately bought by Jews at premium rates...

I told you, it's not "my Mantra" I've only borrowed it,
it belongs to the UNITED NATIONS ASSEMBLY.
I can only suggest you write a 'stiff letter' to the Head of the UN., as they are saying that they should give back the "occupied territories", (there's a clue in the title... )
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... ing_Israel

HTH

[cyst & deceased]

It doesn't bother me what people believe usually.

I can respect Jo's POV as he is against violence.
Edit to add- his arguments make sense to me.

I can respect all sorts of free will, all sorts of beliefs.

What bugs me is when some people say that they are right and
their POV is the correct POV, and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong.
(SO WHAT???)

One doesn't have to attend every argument he is invited to.