Religion and stuff...

[Jo van]

You're not 'helping' much.....

Some people will think that's a good idea...

The way most churches have 'dropped' the devil from their 'marketing',

shows that they think along exactly those 'lines'.....

"Marketability", not reasoning, is sadly their 'driving force'....

[zangie]

Y a know Jo..I don't find extremists of any stripe to be "rational" or "reasonable"...and your position seems to be pretty extreme,don't ya think? It is never only one side or the other that is at fault in any dispute ( marriage, politics, etc)..it is always a combination of the two..because it takes two to tango..why both sides need to negotiate and find a compromise...and doing away with religion won't be the answer..I doubt it is even possible...too ingrained...they have to find a secular reason to cooperate...

[Jo van]

Y a know Jo..I don't find extremists of any stripe to be "rational" or "reasonable"...and your position seems to be pretty extreme,don't ya think?

There's nothing "extreme" about my position Zange.
I haven't killed anyone, or even advocated it.
What I'm saying is that people can believe whatever they like,
as long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on people who don't share them.
eg Israel. and the 1000 year wars over their "sacred sites"
Abortion,
Contraception,
Homosexuality,
Medical research.
Racism
gender equality.
Slaughter rituals,
Clothing, and talisman issues.
Holidays, and associated religious rites and rituals, leading to bans on what non-believers can enjoy.

The demanding of "respect" for their own deluded beliefs, is what leads to all the conflicts.
People can believe whatever they like, the problems start when they attack other people,
for "standing on my magic circle",
or "disrespecting my pixie".

If you told me, that "god" had given you my house, would you expect me to respect that, and simply leave...?
I can't believe this is still an issue in 2010...
It's nonsense.

[saddle-tramp]

I don't care wot ye think Jo... Muslims want me and us Kaffirs off the face of this Earth, and people like you are helping them achieve that aim, with yer pulling down yer trousers and bending over for them...

I say bring on Armageddon, they keep wanting to go to their sexist god wi 99 under age virgins they get to fk every nite... And you support that...

I think we should get them all together, and ask them who wants to go to their god, give them the choice, and send them there, the others who don't want to go to their god should STF up wi their anti westernism, and sexist intolerant religion, which I note you support...

I've already proved the PLO originated in that Nazi supporting racist, and have shown they emulate the Nazis not just in words and deeds, but in images aswell... And you support them....

[Jo van]

I don't care wot ye think Jo...

And yet you keep posting things like:

Muslims want me and us Kaffirs off the face of this Earth, and people like you are helping them achieve that aim,

And how am I "helping them"...?
-By saying that ALL religions are irrational...?

they keep wanting to go to their sexist god wi 99 under age virgins they get to fk every nite... And you support that...

You seem to think that by stating lies, enough times, this will somehow, magically, make them true.
-That's people "of faith" for you....!

should STF up wi their anti westernism, and sexist intolerant religion, which I note you support...

It's not just the muslim religion that's misogynistic,, women aren't allowed to become priests, and all three (main) religions exclude homosexuals, despite civil laws.
I note you support this.
Whereas I don't support any religious dogma.

I've already proved the PLO originated in that Nazi supporting racist, and have shown they emulate the Nazis not just in words and deeds, but in images aswell... And you support them....

And I have already proved that the King of this country was also a "Nazi supporting racist".
It means nothing.
Either way, neither of them were responsible for the bulldozing of 418 Palestinian villages from 1948 onwards...
But you support that.
Because "god gave them the land 2000 years ago"

So just to be clear, because you seem a little confused.
I don't support violence (You do, see above)
I don't support the irrational beliefs of muslims,
and I don't support the irrational beliefs of christians or jews.(you do)
Those beardy hasidic jews, in their silly costumes, nodding at some old wall, are every bit as irrational as muslims, with their silly beliefs about women or stonings. They ALL get their beliefs from the Old Testament!
Which even a cursory glance at, will show it to be the ramblings of "Bronze-Age Man". How anyone could demand "respect" for those ancient scribblings, is beyond me, and I find it very difficult to take anyone seriously who does.
And that includes you, with all your cryptic rants about the old testament containing proof of our descendance from "Spacemen", and links with Sumerians etc etfcuking ceterii.
Luckily, no-one with such views, is allowed into any positions of power or responsibility.
They are quite rightly regarded as the 'loony-tunes' that they undoubtedly are!
Hopefully, (present company excepted) rationality will prevail, and that people will eventually see the old rituals and beliefs, as simple, primitive, "superstition".

[saddle-tramp]

We've got a King?

Aww ye mean the queen of the UKs husband, i've already beat to that one matey.... Also, a couple of his sisters where married to high ranking Nazi officials....

Israel bulldozed empty villages, villages Arabs had been told by their own people to evacuate so the advancing overwhelming Arab armies promised to wipe the area Jew Free... Sound familiar of events 8 years previous in Europe?

[Jo van]

Well, those same "extremist" religious people are still settling the "OCCUPIED TERRITORIES" today, because they believe that there should be no-one but Jews there, because "God gave them the land".
Just the same justification they gave when they bulldozed all those villages, and massacred the inhabitants.

This is the same people who think god doesn't want them to switch on a light on "the sabbath", and who discourage "new technology"..
They wear furry hats on that day, apparently, god was "very big on hats", all the religions like a good HAT!
The women must cover up, and "dress modestly".
Married women, must cover their hair.
This can either be done with a scarf (sound familiar..?) or a wig....
Yes, that's right!
We mustn't see their hair,
but it's ok to see some hair, that's exactly like their hair,
but worn over the top of their hair,
to make me think I'm looking AT their hair,
but I'm actually looking at someone else's hair....

It all sounds perfectly rational to me, and it would be "disrespectful" of me to laugh at that....however......




Of course, this is just one branch of "Orthodox Jews", and only founded in the 18th century.
There are many others too, all with their own hats....
Like I said earlier in the thread, anyone wearing "fancy dress", but still taking themselves seriously,
and worse, expecting me to take them seriously, has to be viewed with some "caution" ....
These are the sort of people, who's "rights" will plunge the world into war.
IMO

[belinda]

What I'm saying is that people can believe whatever they like,
as long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on people who don't share them.
[Edit]
The demanding of "respect" for their own deluded beliefs, is what leads to all the conflicts.

i don't wish to resurrect (npi) the Israel thread... hence have edited out the reference to that religion / conflict.

What you are saying is not that people can believe whatever they like.

The Christian and Muslim faiths (possibly others, but i do not know enough to say in any way) have the requirement to proselytise that particular brand of religion. (The Jewish faith does not, because in strict Orthodoxy the only way to be a Jew is to have been born of a Jewish mother.) If a person of one of those faiths does not try to bring that brand of religion to everyone she / he meets, then they are not fulfilling every stricture of their religion.

You (impersonal term) cannot pretend to be magnanimous and say that following a religion is OK, and then deny a follower the right to practice that religion in its entirety.

A logical extension of your argument would thus be to say that one can be a Jew, one can practice any non-conversion faith, but one can't be Christian or Muslim. Is this really your advocacy, Jo van?

Disclaimer:
Personal faiths; such as modifications of Christianity; do not have that requirement to convert others so anyone who feels they have a personal faith is not being addressed here.

.

[Jo van]

What I'm saying is that people can believe whatever they like,
as long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on people who don't share them.
[Edit]
The demanding of "respect" for their own deluded beliefs, is what leads to all the conflicts.

i don't wish to resurrect (npi) the Israel thread... hence have edited out the reference to that religion / conflict.

What you are saying is not that people can believe whatever they like.

The Christian and Muslim faiths (possibly others, but i do not know enough to say in any way) have the requirement to proselytise that particular brand of religion. (The Jewish faith does not, because in strict Orthodoxy the only way to be a Jew is to have been born of a Jewish mother.) If a person of one of those faiths does not try to bring that brand of religion to everyone she / he meets, then they are not fulfilling every stricture of their religion.

You (impersonal term) cannot pretend to be magnanimous and say that following a religion is OK, and then deny a follower the right to practice that religion in its entirety.

A logical extension of your argument would thus be to say that one can be a Jew, one can practice any non-conversion faith, but one can't be Christian or Muslim. Is this really your advocacy, Jo van?

Disclaimer:
Personal faiths; such as modifications of Christianity; do not have that requirement to convert others so anyone who feels they have a personal faith is not being addressed here.

.

I thought you were "on holiday"...?
Nooo that's not what I'm saying, I wasn't considering the 'obligation' to 'proselytise', though that is an important consideration.
I was talking about imposing their beliefs on others by force/insistence.
Eg Saying their god gave them someone else's land.
Or saying that no-one should drink alcohol,
Or that all women should be covered up.
Or shouldn't be allowed to drive
(So no 'theocracies', AT ALL!)
Do "Faith Schools" constitute a form of proselytising...?
And surely dictating the beliefs of one's children, TO them, is a form of "abuse"....?

Maybe religion should be like tobacco, and alcohol, and pórn...?
-you need to be a certain age before you're allowed access....?

[moon willow]

Jo....I really think it is not correct for you to be putting down a form of religious practice with no one here
practicing it to give some truths and understanding of why and what it's all about.

I would like to point out my oldest brother did emigrate to Israel from Alaska 17 or 18 years ago and immersed
himself into the life of what you call an Orthodox Jew and what they call Traditional Jews.

I personally do not relate to living one's life to such an extreme where, to them, everything they do is an honouring
of God....to me it's way too restrictive....but then I have never had any desire or calling to do what he's done...
In fact I'm quite the opposite, having both been raised (along with my other two brothers who also do not practice
Judaiism), in an observant, but not Orthodox home.

I am not able to enter this debate 'properly', as I have only just opened to this page, but, again, I do not appreciate the tone
of your putting down the practices of my brother and his wife and children that they believe are sacred when it seems
you are ignorant of the deeper meaning of why they do what they do.