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[Jo van]

Initially the premise of this OP purported to be about the relationship between state and church and asked about church run states..except it seems to have become a thread where we are supposed to battle it out with a dyed in the wool atheist extremist (the OP) over spiritual beliefs and the stupidity of those who have an innate theosophic bent..

Let's get back on topic...

Indeed I mentioned the church/state separation in the OP., but I titled it "Religion and stuff", so as to be deliberately flexible.
And hopefully no posts will be deleted for being "off-topic" here (because he's banned! )

I don't think the species would have developed without a "faith" element in the genetic soup. I also think it's sort of like the appendix or wisdom teeth. Vistigical structures that have no inherent positive or negative impacts, unless they go wrong.

An interesting thought Hanna, and I think that Dawkins alludes to that in his book, "The God Delusion".
I don't know if there are any small settlements/villages/tribes, living remotely from civilisation, who have "belief systems" that don't include some element of the "supernatural". I think it's more to do with man's need to have everything "explained" and "accounted for", than it is to do with some inherent sociological "need". But I don't know enough about it to comment really it's JMO.

You're joking with me Hanna Solo...he's all but accused God of being nothing more than a hateful war mongerer...he accused him/that/whomever by name even!

Not at all. I'm saying that the people who originated the myth, (that you base your version of your belief in god on) were a war like, superstitious people. Consequently, the concept of "just wars" have their origins in that same myth.

The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years), did so because the same myth about god, also declared that god had "given them the land".
Religion is at the heart of the "middle Eastern Conflict"
And as far as State/Church goes, the Balfour Declaration was a result of a Christian Prime Minister, who also believed in the "Promised Land" myth. And before him, Zionism had it's origins with Disraeli, who was himself Jewish.
60% of "Christians" in the USA., believe that Israel truly "belongs" to Jews, and that they're justified in their claim to that land. And the USA gives about $3 Billion pA in "Aid" to Israel.

The nature of US foreign aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel
to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world. Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign
aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees,
which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day. This amount excludes
the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual
donors. All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes
30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/aug2007/aidcut.html
State-sanctioned and funded violence and "ethnic cleansing", which has resulted in the dispossessed Palestinians, herded into the Gazza Ghetto, and forced to live "under siege", because they disagree with the Christian and Jewish "versions" of "history"...which have been used as justification for the theft of their land.
So my question to all you believers in a "Deity", is; do you also believe that "God gave Israel to the Jews"..?

[cyst & deceased]

I think many times politicians and religious leaders use God as an excuse for war. Maybe that's the only way to sell it to the public. We're all smart enough to know there is nothing godly about war.

Obviously, Jo, you feel very passionately about your beliefs. Others feel passionately about their beliefs too. While you may see it as a logical argument some people feel like it's a personal insult. Question their God, and you challenge the basic fiber of their personality.

Most of the people I know are Christians. They are not moguls, or politicians trying to inflict pain upon anyone. They do the best they can. They try to treat others with dignity and respect. They live lives of quiet desperation. They aren't trying to convert anyone to their faith. If they are wrong, so what? They aren't hurting anyone.

I think your heart is in the right place. I know there are some zealots out there who spew hatred and ignorance. I just hope you realize they are the exception, not the rule. Nobody in their right might mind wants to be affiliated with that kind of sick behavior. They have a warped sense of godliness and nobody likes them, not even other Christians.

I realize I live in an area where people are different than what most posters experience. I think we would all be better off if we would get rid of the tv's and newspapers, and actually talk to one another. What is the point in living if it's not to relate to others?




I have the sudden desire to wake up the neighborhood with "War Pigs" now.


PS- My understanding of Buddha (which is very limited) is that he was a human who attained enlightenment, and tried to share the way with others. I think it's wrong to claim he was a deity or godly. Dalai Llama said Buddhism has nothing to do with God, it has to do with humans. I guess I could dig out the direct quote if anyone wants it. It's it one of these books around here somewhere.


PPS- Someone much older and wiser once gave me a useful exercise. Take all the major religious books, read them, then report all the similarities and contrasts between them. How are they alike? How are they different? What are the major points in each? It takes a true open mind and a truly loving individual to comprehend it. War mongers and politicians have no time for such an experience.

[Jo van]

One of the "Oddest" moments of 'reality' for me recently, was the appointment of Tony Blaire as "Middle East Peace Envoy"
Leaving aside the fact that he'd just declared war on a Muslim Country, he is a newly converted "Roman Catholic", and so also subscribes to the "Holiness" of those sites in and around Jerusalem etc...
I can't get my head around the logic at all...
Sending a Catholic to sort out a dispute between Muslims and Jews, based on the Holy Book, seems crazy to me.
I've said before, it's like sending a believer in Fairies, to sort out a dispute between Believers in Pixies, and believers in Goblins.
It can only "end in tears"
What it really needs, is an Atheist to "bang their heads together", and tell them to pack it in....
IMO

[saddle-tramp]

The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years),

Uhoh... Bullshite allert...bullshite alert...

[saddle-tramp]

What it really needs, is an Atheist to "bang their heads together", and tell them to pack it in....
IMO

Another misnomer, an Atheist wouldn't have a clue what it's about, a deeply religious situation, and a godless moron who smugly announces that he knows best and has evolved beyond stupid superstitious beleifs in fairies will only annoy ths sh*t out of the participants... Actually, no, come to think of it, it might unite them...

[Jo van]

The people who took the land by force from the Palestinians (who'd lived on it for the last 2000 years),

Uhoh... Bullshite allert...bullshite alert...

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel.
That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?
Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?
There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing:
we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

I just go by what I've read, I don't know what version you choose to believe, I think the above quote by Israel's first Prime Minister, from a book written by the "former president of the World Jewish Congress", is a fairly reliable summary of what went on.
as is this, written by "Jews against the Occupation":
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

[restless_native]

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Bill Hicks.

[zangie]

It's funny, but I get accusesd of being too "logical"., or humanist by evangelicals about my aporoach to faith...lol..

The israeli/palestinian conflict has been going on for hundreds of years..no one will be able to get them to accede /agree...what we need is someone who understands both sides, and gets them to compromise in a way that neither lose face...and you will never get anyone with that strong of an emotional conviction to give up their beliefs..on either side....

[saddle-tramp]

Jo... I don't need to regurtitate a rant about religious Propaganda someone else has spouted in this forum....

I too can look up wikedquotes from Ben-Gurion...

Yours missed out the preambles:

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs : From Peace to War (1985) by Shabtai Teveth, p. 32.


We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.

Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us.
"On three fronts" (3 August 1938) as quoted in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (1954), p. 91

We accepted the UN resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?
Address to the Israeli cabinet (12 May 1948), as quoted in "One day that shook the world" by Ellli Wohlgelernter, in The Jerusalem Post (30 April 2002)

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)

But I'll save the last for a complete rendition of yer quote:
I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99.

Personally, I think you have either chosen to omit, or are ignorant of, but either way, you missed the irony in the content of the above quote...

THE problem with The Muslims Zange, and a lot of people don't understand this, is the Law of Dhimmi...

Restie baby.. I mentioned on here in this thread something about taking acid...

[restless_native]

Restie baby.. I mentioned on here in this thread something about taking acid...

I couldn't be arsed to read it all.

Maybe a brief synopsis at the end of each page would be useful.