Religion and stuff...

[saddle-tramp]

But that's not how it was taught right up until recently. "In my day" the creation story was taught as fact, and there are still some people who wish to continue to do so. I think there are still cases ongoing in the US., and some very vociferous advocates of the literal teaching of the bible.

Respectfully, those who teach literal interpretation of the Bible are a relatively recent aberration and should not be used as exemplars of how the Bible was taught in the past or present. Any lecture from a divinity studies class at any major university or any good book on the history of religion will disabuse someone of that quickly.

The fundamentalism of the last century really is the product of a small subset of beliefs that has been very specifically traced to a few branches of religion.

The bulk of religious teachers and believers have, for the most part, always subscribed to the notion that much of what they are taught is mytho-poetic. Simply from the history of literature, the idea of keeping a literal history did not exist in the sense we know it until quite late in the second millennium of the common era.

The other thing to keep in mind whenever examining these issues is the completely different zeitgeist of the people under scrutiny. One must scrupulously avoid attaching the thinking patterns of 21st century people to the ancients...they simply did not view the world around them in the way we do. Their entire frame of reference was completely different and one must use a liberal dose of imagination to build up in their mind the mental picture of the people/time/place under examination to "grok" the question being examined, especially as regards pre-scientific peoples.

Pre-scientific worldviews differ very sharply with ours for instance...but that does not mean they were incapable of observation over time or coming up with tangible results, especially in feats of engineering and technology.

Literalism tends to be a product of poor education though - I agree on this - in one's own spiritual tradition and is a product of lay teachers teaching each other and/or a rejection of knowledge for "inspiration"...otherwise known as "make it up as you go."

All IMHO...your bushels, talents and lamps may vary.

I can just imagine an ancient chap in the bar saying to the other, "wot the fk is he on about"?.... And I have stood in one of those not so ancient 2000 year old bars (though, aye, no drinking beer or any other beveridge)... Pompey, this February...

To assume the ancients didn't know "stuff" is arrogant, we "re-discovered" many "stuff" the ancients knew about, for instance during the Rennaisance....

The Bible for one book, is full of historical fact... the ancient Israelites certainly had their fingers on the political pulse on the times they where writing about, the battles and the descriptions of them are indeed accurate to the terrain, and in the creation "myth" it certainly agrees wi the "theory" of the creation of the Earth... Just because there's a lot of "and beshel begat belshasar etc ad infinum" doesn't mean there are literal historical truths... Which biblical and also historical scholars have proven is indeed the case....

then again, a lot of it all is over the heads of the humblies and uninitiated....

[Jo van]

The Bible for one book, is full of historical fact... the ancient Israelites certainly had their fingers on the political pulse on the times they where writing about, the battles and the descriptions of them are indeed accurate to the terrain, and in the creation "myth" it certainly agrees wi the "theory" of the creation of the Earth... Just because there's a lot of "and beshel begat belshasar etc ad infinum" doesn't mean there are literal historical truths... Which biblical and also historical scholars have proven is indeed the case....

then again, a lot of it all is over the heads of the humblies and uninitiated....

How does the following "agree with the theory"...?
And how is it "over the heads" of anyone...?
It's just drivel...
http://www.ebible.com/bible/Genesis+

Chapter 1
The Beginning
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2Now the earth was† formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.”
7So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
12The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.
16God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.”
21So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”
23And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,† and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Chapter 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested† from all his work.
3And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

And that's why the church opposed sunday opening!
It doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to what we now know happened, so now it's "not supposed to be taken literally"...?
Gimme a break..!
The world wasn't covered in water to begin with, and they don't seem to acknowledge that there would have been plenty of light from the sun, and the night, is caused by the earth's rotation. It's all just made up.
And I find the concept of an omnipotent being "getting tired" and "resting", a little hard to swallow....
WHO TF is he "worshipping" on the "sabbath"..?
And who was he talking to when he said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,"...?
Drivel.
Almost all primitive societies had/have "creation myths"...
Until a couple of hundred years ago, "we" didn't even know about how conception worked.
You have to put all these primitive beliefs in context.
They just look silly when viewed with our current levels of knowledge.
And make the people who perpetuate them, just look dishonest.
IMO

[saddle-tramp]

“Ever since the first ideas about evolution appeared around 900 B.C., men have viewed the subject as an adamantly opposed concept to the concept of a supreme being. . . If we look carefully at the issues about which we are talking, however, we can find that evolution and the Bible show amazing agreement on almost all issues and that one is not mutually exclusive of the other. . . Let us search together without prejudice and without taking an ax along to grind to see if we can see the convergence of these concepts” ("The Source", John Clayton1976, p. 130; emp. added).

So we KNOW exactly how it all happenned then... Scientists are in total agreement then... Ye'll probably not realise they don't and aren't... why, just very recently, the theory of the Big Bang has been proven to be flawed...

I can understand yer frustration and the reason for yer wee rant, but I have already addressed them elsewhere...

Remember, the Christians who where copying the earlier writings where not initiated into their secret messages they where copying, and bear in mind, the old Testament was really a copy of a condensed version of writings from the earliest period in civilization...

The New Testament was a new set of rules etc finished off with a seemingly bunch of gobble de gook* with Revelations full of deep symbolism and ambiguity (which for some reason the content is actually happening, now)... Rome was heavily influenced by the Pagan worship of their Sun god Apollo, then Sol Invictus and the Sunday day of rest etc etc et al ... Ye get the message...

The Catholic Church Today is still sprinkled heavily with sun worship symbolisms (red maltese style crosses and the halos etc), my inner feelings on this is that they have deeper meanings than just simple Sun worship but a trace back to a much earlier meaning lost in antiquity or deliberate misrepresentation and subsequently dogma... (And NO, I haven't read the da vinci code books, seen the films, and it was a good bit of fun, but still disinformational crap)...

The current goings on in the Mid East are a culmination which has been centuries in the making (isn't it interesting how the U.S found a rebuilt Babylon, and the efforts of the US to finish off the rebuild), and we can expect an invasion of Iran soon as part of that (my pet theory is that it has fk all to do wi oil really), and there's another site, but I think the current leasing country will be playing ball, so no need for invasion there...

All by the by, take the recent sun worship goings on here and around Glastonbury Tor (or eslewhere)... Interesting ay? ... (And I can just hear, "yeah, but it's not about worshipping the sun, it's about blahh blahh blahh....And ehhhh... I mean, it's....blahh blahh, blahh bahh... )...


* Yep, I have wrote that correctly...

[Jo van]

“Ever since the first ideas about evolution appeared around 900 B.C., men have viewed the subject as an adamantly opposed concept to the concept of a supreme being. . . If we look carefully at the issues about which we are talking, however, we can find that evolution and the Bible show amazing agreement on almost all issues and that one is not mutually exclusive of the other. . . Let us search together without prejudice and without taking an ax along to grind to see if we can see the convergence of these concepts” ("The Source", John Clayton1976, p. 130; emp. added).

yes, a lot of religious people now make this claim, but as you can see from the "Genesis" extract above, they are 'clutching at straws'. There is no ambiguity in the biblical 'creation story'... it's just wrong, not even close...
The "light/dark", and "day and night" references just show the primitive mindset of the purported authors.

So we KNOW exactly how it all happenned then... Scientists are in total agreement then... Ye'll probably not realise they don't and aren't... why, just very recently, the theory of the Big Bang has been proven to be flawed...

No, they don't know "exactly" how it all happened, and scientists will never be in total agreement, but there is a 'consensus' about the approximate age of the earth, and the universe, about 4 billion years, and 14 billion respectively, and we certainly know that it's creation and development was not the way the bible claims. Although until quite recently, to the uneducated, illiterate, superstitious population, it seemed quite feasible. But they also believed in witches, and devils, and possessions. Up until about 50 years ago, cigarettes were said to be "good for you"...

In what way has the Big Bang theory been "proven" to be "flawed"...?...?

[Fingerless Glove]

Laws like this have a chilling effect on freedom of speech, freedom of expression and thought and criticism and try to establish a tyranny of theocracy...an attempt to keep religion a taboo that remains untouchable. They are a step backward in time and in thought and yet a seemingly modern western nation, Ireland, now has stepped back into paternalistic servitude to the Vatican by allowing this law to stand, and that after the Vatican's criminal coverup of decades of abuse of men, women and children of Eire, from the Magdalen Laundries to sexual abuse of altar boys and a pope complicit in it.

Practice your faith if you like, but religion must never be superior in status to civil law.

Where is the specific part in the bill where it states that blasphemy is equal to defamation and illegal?

It certainly would be interesting to see what would happen if members of the Catholic Church in Ireland brought anybody to court for blasphemy there's a lot of very disgruntled Catholics in this country who believe they are being treated very badly in Ireland at the present moment ..I'd say they'd like to drag the government though court and have them done for blasphemy at the moment because they are totally sticking their two fingers up at the church recently - I wonder if they would get away with the suggestion that 'action' (which we all know speak louder than words} taken in contravention to the rule of God and in particular the teachings of the vatican is blasphemous?




Today in the news here..there is a story of an Irish priest from the west of Ireland who is trying to set up a Priest's Union here - I really do hope that happens.

The priest was saying that a union is needed because he and his colleagues aren't consulted upon any of the decisions made by the vatican but are expected to preach what they are told to etc. but his primary interest in setting up a union for priests is to protect their livelihood because less and less men are joining the priesthood in this country...eventually it won't be feasible to keep churches open or to carry out the work of the church in some areas because there will be no manpower as such to do it...

I was hoping that his interest in setting up a union would be for slightly better reasons but creating a union with the backing of other priests would be fantastic, I think ....priests are supposed to have taken vows of obedience, it's not very obedient of them to come together and become a force which questions the Pope's rulings hehe.

Things are definitely changing in this country, there's no doubt about that in my mind.

[zangie]

I grew up Catholic...we were NOT taught to take the Bible literally..it was inspirational..not infallible or totally accurate fact wise, or historically, it was written by mortals, who,. inspired or not..are not perfect or infallible...I find that fundalmentalists, Christians expecially, are the literal ones...in fact, I clash with them often for their rigidity of interpretation, and naroow mindedness...

Genesis is obviously a metaphor Jo...because NO ONE was alive when it happened..the older the bible book is, the more likely it is a representation of ideas, rather than literal truth..plus, like the telphone game...much got changed in the passing down...it is easy to connect God and science, in my mind...IF he is all powerful...nothing says he didn't cause the actual big bang, or the science that explains it...I don't need to reconcile it literally..I "believe" in both, and don't think one negates the other...

I'd appreciate it if you would stop calling me a moron, and cluelss etc, lol.....just because I have faith doesn't mean I don't take science seriously, or that I'm not intelligent...I do both...I don't presume to know the answers to all or any of it...and maybe I never will...

As to mortality, verity..since I have no particular fear of dying, and actually don't like the idea of living forever ( I'd be fine with death being the end...) I don't think that's why I believe at all..it's just my representation of a good way to live..and whether I got that from my upbringing, the bible itself or any other book, or person doesn't matter...it's what works for me...and I don't expect others to agree, nor to tell me I'm defective because I don't agree with them..I think we all have valid outlooks..and there is no one true answer..or no one true answer that any of us can be sure of....totally, with no doubt...

[Fingerless Glove]

Reading what Jovan writes reminds me of what a young teen who'd been indoctrinated into the Catholic faith might say after discovering that, yes, indeed, the church is not infallible ..similar how the same teen could feel if they also realise their parents are less than perfect - it makes you angry for a bit and then you grow up and gain better understanding..

Jo didn't you say you were raised as an atheist?

If that is so...why do you carry on the way you do about religion which doesn't actually affect you - like Zangie says it's a bit of a cheek you saying that she and anybody else who believes in religion is stupid particularly when having not lived through a daily diet of God and prayer yourself as a youngster?

Contrary to popular belief, water is my favourite tipple - nothing else I could imbibe would ever equal the satisfaction I get from a swig of nice cool water..and every time I take a swig or knock back a glassful, I say "Thank you so much God..that was delicious!"

The name God to me, is representative of everything that is wonderful in life...and I don't really care what the personification of God is in other people's eyes.

I do think the Catholic Church as run by the vatican is as sinister a sect as scientology..but I don't think Catholics are stupid, nor muslims, nor Jews..

Quick..someone report me for being blasphemous I might achieve notoriety by being excommunicated!!

[verityone]

I grew up Catholic...we were NOT taught to take the Bible literally..it was inspirational..not infallible or totally accurate fact wise, or historically, it was written by mortals, who,. inspired or not..are not perfect or infallible...I find that fundalmentalists, Christians expecially, are the literal ones...in fact, I clash with them often for their rigidity of interpretation, and naroow mindedness...

People clashing because of religious beliefs.

Who woulda thunk it?...

[Jo van]

Genesis is obviously a metaphor Jo...because NO ONE was alive when it happened..the older the bible book is, the more likely it is a representation of ideas, rather than literal truth..plus, like the telphone game...much got changed in the passing down...it is easy to connect God and science, in my mind...IF he is all powerful...nothing says he didn't cause the actual big bang, or the science that explains it...I don't need to reconcile it literally..I "believe" in both, and don't think one negates the other...

When you say it "got changed", you're not really taking into account the beliefs or 'mindset' of the people who originated these myths. You're saying that the original version was perhaps more accurate, or more scientific...? Until about 500 years ago, it was believed that "the heavens" and the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. As the Bible says. This was perfectly plausible, because that's how it looks. Galileo was threatened with "Excommunication" by the church, and was forced to recant by the Inquisition for his "false and contrary to Scripture" version of things.
Of course, the churches which "teach" their version of events, don't want people to stop "believing", if that happens, they are out of "work". The church still teaches the bible, but now says it's a metaphor, because we are all too sophisticated and educated to take it literally any more. (In the "West", [mostly])
They still have "rich pickings" where education is minimal, or where they control the education, like in Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
God (always MALE) says that women should know their place, and are the belongings of their husbands.
All three religions agree that Homosexuality is a "sin"
Whilst I appreciate you motives are honourable, to be so selective about the version or versions of god you choose to believe in, you are ignoring most of the main points that it's claimed that "god wants"
It would be like me saying I was a Conservative, but I don't believe in capitalism or the free market.

I'd appreciate it if you would stop calling me a moron, and cluelss etc, lol.....just because I have faith doesn't mean I don't take science seriously, or that I'm not intelligent...I do both...I don't presume to know the answers to all or any of it...and maybe I never will...

I'd appreciate it if you could point out to me where I've done that...?

Jo didn't you say you were raised as an atheist?

Nope. Like most people my age, I was even packed off to Sunday school at a very young age. I went to a C of E Primary school, and sang "All things bright and beautiful, the Lord God made them all"
And then I went to an all boys C of E Grammar school, where we were taught the "scriptures" in the same way that we were taught history; "Jesus performed this miracle, Paul said this, James said that"..... etc etc

If that is so...why do you carry on the way you do about religion which doesn't actually affect you - like Zangie says it's a bit of a cheek you saying that she and anybody else who believes in religion is stupid particularly when having not lived through a daily diet of God and prayer yourself as a youngster?

See Above.
I have never said anyone was "stupid" on the contrary, without even looking, I know that I referred to believers as "Educated and intelligent"

Of course it affects me! It affects everyone! I lived through the bombing campaigns of the 70's and 80's..
And throughout my life, the war in the 'middle east' has been going on. Although it's only in the last 20 years or so that I've researched it and become more aware of what's been going on there, all in the name of religion.
They believe that Israel "belongs" to them, even though 99% of them hadn't lived there for 2000 years. They believe it because it says so in the bible, and the Tora. It says "god gave it to them". Of course, that can't be proved or disproved, or even challenged or doubted, because it's the "word of god".

There isn't anywhere where you can live, and not be "affected by religion.
But if I voice my objections, I'm accused of being "disrespectful" or of "preaching", or that I have some "agenda", or that I'm 'more evangelical than religious people'.
What you expect of me, is to politely pretend that grown people aren't talking bullsh1t..
You expect me to be silent about the many disputes and wars, and about the burkha, or teachers praying for miracles, or air stewardesses who demand to wear crucifixes, or bangles, or knives, or turbans or halal meat, or kosher food, or the teaching of "intelligent design" or even "Blasphemy Laws"
FFS!

If a politician talks sh1t, I'm entitled to say that IMO he's talking Sh1t.
And if a beardy man in a spangly dress, with a special magic pointy hat is talking sh1t, I'm also entitled to say so.

Religions cause wars.
How can you "believe" but not believe in the "Holy Land" and all it's history and problems...?
The sooner we 'grow out of' them the better..
It "Affects" everyone...
IMO

[Fingerless Glove]

Of course it affects me! It affects everyone! I lived through the bombing campaigns of the 70's and 80's..

The Irish republican cause has got absolutely sweet F.A. to do with religion...get that into your head now please!!

If I hear that bollix mentioned on here again..I'm going to go mad!!

I'll leave Zangie to answer the rest of your post...